Thursday, August 7, 2008

Petition To Request the Federal Elections Commission to Investigate Barack Obama

Please consider signing this petition at

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Federal-Elections-Commssion/

The signers of this petition request the Federal Elections Commission and Mr. Donald McGahan, FEC chairman, to take responsibility to verify the eligibility of Mr. Barack H. Obama to be President of the United States. Mr. Obama has refused to produce a physical certified, stamped copy of his birth certificate. An electronically-displayed image displayed by his official campaign website has alleged to have been a forgery, with the filing number blacked out. We request that the FEC require Mr. Obama to authorize the FEC to obtain an official copy of his birth certificate and if he does not produce the authorization that the FEC reject his registration as a presidential candidate; that the FEC not monitor his campaign finances during the primary or election; that votes cast for Mr. Obama and reported by the states' boards of elections not be recorded and displayed by the FEC; and that Mr. Obama be considered in violation of 2 USC 437g for filing a false statement on FEC Form 2, as specified on that form.

42 comments:

Mairi said...

Please understand, that opponents are trying to make anyone who challenges Barrack Hussein Obama appear to be a crackpot at the least. This is going to take an avalanche of people demanding proof of legal qualifications. I urge all who read the various posts regarding proof of legal qualification to write to their individual State Board of Elections, and demand that this candidate produce all necessary documentation. Don't be fooled into thinking this is anything but SERIOUS business. Article II of the United States Constitution is at stake. The Founding Fathers were very careful in designing this Article. It's impact is immense. They fully understood the ramifications if this Article's provisions for citizenship failed. I urge visitors to this site to take the initiative and accept the challenge as theirs!

Koyaan said...

An electronically-displayed image displayed by his official campaign website has alleged to have been a forgery...

Except that the person upon whose "analysis" these allegations have been riding on, and who people have been pinning their hopes on, appears to be the real fraud here.

Previously, Techdude had said his real first name was Adam. And by a bizarre coincidence, the experience and qualifications he claims to have are virtually an exact match to those of a Adam Fink of COLLECTECH, LLC.

Except that Techdude isn't Adam Fink. It appears that he simply used the bona fides of Adam Fink (which are available on the web) to pass himself off as a computer forensics analyst.

And there's no doubt whatsoever that much of his "analysis" has been a complete fabrication on his part. He has already contradicted himself twice as I've pointed out here and here.

His last swan dive was to claim that the name of Obama's sister was found in the "remnants" of what he claims was originally printed on the certificate.

The only other person claiming to have also found it is TexasDarlin poster KG, who found it someplace other than where Techdude's claims would have placed it. Yet, as I say in my post referenced above, Techdude "verified" his result.

The only question left is whether Techdude was someone who would stoop to nothing to try and keep Obama from being elected, or if he was just playing everyone for fools and seeing how much crap he could feed people and have them swallow.

k

Mairi said...

Koyaan, The point that many of us make is this: The COLB states clearly that any alteration invalidates it. The certificate number has been removed. There is no reason to remove that number, unless it does not match the numbering system Hawaii utilizes when they issue these documents. It is just that simple. We request a legitimate COLB that has not been altered. The rest can be left to the experts, and I am sure it will be. The American people have a right to a document that is not altered, to date we have not been given one.

Koyaan said...

Koyaan, The point that many of us make is this: The COLB states clearly that any alteration invalidates it. The certificate number has been removed.

This is a gross misunderstanding.

The "ANY ALTERATIONS..." refers to alterations to the actual, physical, paper document. What we're talking about here is a scanned image of a document. Which isn't a document at all, valid or otherwise. It's simply an image of one.

If you think otherwise, make a photocopy of your driver's license and hand that to the next person who asks you to show them a valid driver's license.

Even if the certificate number wasn't blacked out, it still wouldn't make it a valid document. And by the way, the certificate number was blacked out of the image of the document, not the document itself.

There is no reason to remove that number, unless it does not match the numbering system Hawaii utilizes when they issue these documents. It is just that simple.

Is it?

Look at the Michele COLB that Techdude used for his analysis. It has the certificate number blocked out as well. So did another 2007 COLB that he used. It's also blocked out on the Tomoyasu COLB.

So apparently there are a number of other people who seemed to feel that they shouldn't allow the certificate number be seen on their COLBs as well.

To conclude that the only reason it was blocked out is because it doesn't match the numbering system that Hawaii uses is letting your imagination run much too wild.

Why did these other people feel compelled to black out theirs? Are they hiding something too?

Maybe they simply felt that revealing the certificate number might give identity thieves information that could be useful to them. Maybe the person who scanned and prepared the Obama image was thinking the same thing.

The American people have a right to a document that is not altered, to date we have not been given one.

The American people can't be given any document. At least not unless Obama requests a hundred million of them and sends one to every household.

All the American people can be given would be a photograph, video or scanned image of a document. And what more would you have then than you have right now?

k

Mairi said...

Koyaan, The image is not valid. The others allowing use of their certificates is not significant, as they are not a candidate for POTUS. The real certificate should be released to an authority such as the FEC for release to the American public. I am not suggesting that the document should be mailed to every American household, and you really look foolish making an outrageous statement like that. There are legal forums for documenting the COLB and disseminating the information. There are also authorities who are legally sworn to insure that this is done. We have Article II of the Constitution to back our request for proof of legal qualifications. The fact that BHO refuses to utilize a suitable and legal forum to make the certificate available only lends to imaginations running wild. BHO has some serious questions to answer regarding the legal provisions of Article II. Unless he answers those questions to the satisfaction of the American public and of those entities legally bound to protect the American campaign process, he will continue to be considered a "non-compliant" in the American political process, and will face further challenges in the very near future. His balking will not make this issue go away. It makes him appear arrogant and gives the impression he is hiding something.

Mairi said...

Koyaan, one other important point. The Patricia DeCosta COLB, (NO information blacked out) states "Date Accepted by State Registrar" while on the supposed authentic COLB at FTS site, the COLB states "Date Filed by Registrar". These are on the same revised edition laser form. Someone is not telling the truth here, and nothing is blacked out on Patricia's.

Koyaan said...

Koyaan, The image is not valid.

You don't understand, mairi, no scanned image of a document is "valid." Nor did the Obama campaign release it to serve any sort of legal purpose. That's because a scanned image of a document would not serve such a purpose.

So I don't know why you keep going on about it being "valid" or not.

The real certificate should be released to an authority such as the FEC for release to the American public.

For release to the American public? How exactly would it be released to the American public? As a scanned image on a website? That's what you already have now.

There are legal forums for documenting the COLB and disseminating the information.

Exactly what legal forum do you speak of?

There are also authorities who are legally sworn to insure that this is done.

Exactly what authorities do you speak of?

We have Article II of the Constitution to back our request for proof of legal qualifications.

Fine. So now who exactly is charged with enforcing Article II? It's certainly not you or me. Who is it exactly?

The fact that BHO refuses to utilize a suitable and legal forum to make the certificate available only lends to imaginations running wild.

Again, what legal forum exactly?

Koyaan, one other important point. The Patricia DeCosta COLB, (NO information blacked out) states "Date Accepted by State Registrar" while on the supposed authentic COLB at FTS site, the COLB states "Date Filed by Registrar". These are on the same revised edition laser form. Someone is not telling the truth here, and nothing is blacked out on Patricia's.

Someone is not telling the truth here? No. You're just not up to speed on the facts and are coming up with premature conclusions.

The Michele COLB also says, just as Obama's, "DATE FILED BY REGISTRAR," and it has the same revision edition as the DeCosta COLB.

So, are you going to claim that this Michele person isn't telling the truth either?

I'm cutting you some slack here because there are people slinging absolute crap left and right, but please, try and spend a little time thinking and questioning before you reach premature conclusions and pass them off as fact.

k

Mairi said...

The FEC and State Boards of Election are legally bound to insure all candidates pass the legal qualifications. A representative from the FEC nationally, or an Executive Director for a State Board can easily obtain access to the public via television news broadcasts to validate the qualifications of a candidate. We are demanding that they do! I am also guessing, because I don't know for any certainty, that there may be different terms depending on the type of filing with the State Registrar. Until such time as the State of Hawaii makes it known how the system works, we are left in the dark. This also must be cleared beyond any doubt and once again, these are matters best left to the people who by law are charged with that verification. I am NOT slinging any "c@@@", I am demanding that the appropriate authorities investigate BHO's qualifications as they relate to Article II of the Constitution, and make those findings available to the rest of us. It is not difficult, Koyaan, and it has to be done!

Mairi said...

My friends are getting restless. Jim has asked me to present his thoughts to you. He is far more patient than I am. This should have been done a LONG time ago!
"Koyaan,
I understand your skepticism, as I have genuine reserve to the entire matter myself. Nothing seems to make sense from all of this, really. So, to a certain extent, I follow your line of thought. I do not know TechDude from Adam - no pun intended.
The matter could be hotly debated all day. The bottom line is really simple: HOLY MOSES AND GENERAL JACKSON TOO! JUST RELEASE THE DOCUMENT!
What is the big deal? Koyann, you could be correct, all of this might be a tempest in a teapot, but so what? Why not release it?
Koyann, I had to get authenticated COLB's for each of my kids just to enroll them in school. If I have to do it, is it really asking too much for a candidate to do so, or does Mr. Obama run with a different set of rules than you and I?
No reason for anyone to get upset, or to cast aspersions on anyone involved on either side of the debate. Just follow the facts and everything will work out.
JJC."

Ray said...

Blogger Mairi said...

Koyaan, one other important point. The Patricia DeCosta COLB, (NO information blacked out) states "Date Accepted by State Registrar" while on the supposed authentic COLB at FTS site, the COLB states "Date Filed by Registrar". These are on the same revised edition laser form. Someone is not telling the truth here, and nothing is blacked out on Patricia's.

Hawaii Health has confirmed that there are two versions of that text and what appears on the Obama COLB is one of them.

Ray

Ray said...

mairi wrote:

The matter could be hotly debated all day. The bottom line is really simple: HOLY MOSES AND GENERAL JACKSON TOO! JUST RELEASE THE DOCUMENT!

The Obama people as well as the rest of the humans know it's only a smear tactic, but it's too ridiculous to give any attention to. If there was ever a smear that shouldn't be addressed further - this is it. Only about 138 dedicated smearers have convinced themselves that teh smear is true.

Ray said...

mairi wrote:

I am demanding that the appropriate authorities investigate BHO's qualifications as they relate to Article II of the Constitution, and make those findings available to the rest of us. It is not difficult, Koyaan, and it has to be done!

You are demanding when you know very well that there are ordinary mechanisms in place to handle things like eligibility.
You sound like the control freak on Texasdarlin.

Mairi said...

Ray, I am not a control freak at all. All candidates have an obligation to meet the guidelines for qualification as prescribed by law. Americans have a right to know that those entrusted with upholding that law are doing their job. This particular candidate has some unique questions regarding his eligibility, and we need to know that all pertinent questions have been addressed. Under Article II of the Constitution, a candidate may not hold, or have held in the past, dual citizenship. There is a distinct possibility that BHO has. Even if he does produce a legitimate COLB, there are still other factors regarding his unique situation which must be addressed, The COLB is just the beginning. The questions don't end with producing one. The more he appears to refuse to answer the questions, the more he furthers the appearance of impropriety. He needs to work with the appropriate authorities to address his unique situation to the satisfaction of the law. It actually is a very simple request that is being made by citizens on every level of the political spectrum. We do have a right to demand that the appropriate officials address these concerns and make their findings available to the public.

beachy said...

Is John McCain a, "natural born Citizen"? He was not born in the US but in Panama.

Barry Goldwater ran for president and he was born in the Arizona Territory. Was he a "natural born Citizen"?

Mairi said...

Beachy, Article II provides that any citizen serving as an "embassador" to the United States, including those in the military, who has a child born outside the U.S., as in John McCain's particular situation, bestow natural born citizenship to that child. The Senate made this ruling official by passing a resolution. BHO voted to accept that resolution. Please study Article II. It is amazing that the Founding Fathers actually had the foresight to realize a situation such as BHO's might arise, and they addressed it. Article II cannot be changed or altered except by Amendment. That is not likely to happen. This is an extremely powerful protection of the office of POTUS.

Koyaan said...

mairi wrote:

The FEC and State Boards of Election are legally bound to insure all candidates pass the legal qualifications.

Only those qualifications within their purview.

The FEC's purview falls under the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971, which is all about the financing of campaigns. Has absolutely nothing to do with Article II qualifications.

As for the states, their purview falls under Article II, Section 1, Clause 2, which has to do with the state's appointing of electors.

That's an important distinction to make. When we go to the polls, even though we see the candidates' names on the ballot, we're not truly voting for those candidates. We're voting for electors.

Bottom line, Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 does not fall under the purview of either the FEC or the states.

While it is a decidedly federal issue, the FEC is not charged in any way with administering or enforcing it.

A representative from the FEC nationally, or an Executive Director for a State Board can easily obtain access to the public via television news broadcasts to validate the qualifications of a candidate. We are demanding that they do!

And you're demanding this from two entities which have absolutely no legal authority to do so with respect to Article II.

k

beachy said...

"Beachy, Article II provides that any citizen serving as an "embassador" to the United States, including those in the military, who has a child born outside the U.S., as in John McCain's particular situation, bestow natural born citizenship to that child."

Thanks for the info. What about Goldwater?

I know that some states don't let convicted felons vote. How does that impact on their status as a presidential candidate? George W Bush was convicted of drunk driving in 1976. Is that a felony? Does this effect his ability to vote? Should this have impacted on his ability to run for president?

Koyaan said...

mairi wrote:

My friends are getting restless. Jim has asked me to present his thoughts to you.

Okie doke.

Jim writes:

The matter could be hotly debated all day. The bottom line is really simple: HOLY MOSES AND GENERAL JACKSON TOO! JUST RELEASE THE DOCUMENT!
What is the big deal? Koyann, you could be correct, all of this might be a tempest in a teapot, but so what? Why not release it?


Hey Jim!

I can't say I have any answer to that. But by the same token, I can't conclude from that that there's something nefarious going on.

It may be instructive however to look at this from the other side of the equation.

Those who have been screaming about this the loudest, the TexasDarlins, the Atlas Shrugs, the No Quarters, have been making some of the wildest claims based on all manner of "what if" scenarios which spring forth from unsubstantiated speculations.

Put yourself on the other end of this and ask yourself if you wouldn't perhaps be reluctant to capitulate to their demands which would tend to give credence to all the other crap they've been slinging.

Now, I'm not saying Obama has nothing to hide. I've really no idea one way or the other. I'm just saying I don't see how you (and I'm not meaning "you" in the specific sense) can kick someone in the nuts and then expect them to do you any favors.

Koyann, I had to get authenticated COLB's for each of my kids just to enroll them in school. If I have to do it, is it really asking too much for a candidate to do so, or does Mr. Obama run with a different set of rules than you and I?

No, no different set of rules. However there's a difference here in that neither you nor I are the equivalent of the school in your example. And neither you nor I can resolve this issue with regard to the rules, i.e. Article II. You and I can only resolve it with respect to how we cast our votes.

k

Koyaan said...

beachy wrote:

I know that some states don't let convicted felons vote. How does that impact on their status as a presidential candidate?

It doesn't impact it at all.

35 years of age, natural born citizen, and having resided in the United States for 14 years. That's it.

George W Bush was convicted of drunk driving in 1976. Is that a felony?

Not unless it involved injury or death to others, which it didn't. So no, it wasn't a felony.

Does this effect his ability to vote?

Since it wasn't a felony, no.

Should this have impacted on his ability to run for president?

Not on any constitutional grounds, no.

k

Koyaan said...

By the way, I'd just like to comment how refreshing it is to have a nice, respectful debate. Er, Ray notwithstanding. ;)

k

Koyaan said...

mairi wrote:

Under Article II of the Constitution, a candidate may not hold, or have held in the past, dual citizenship.

Article II says nothing directly of dual citizenship, nor does Section 1401 of Title 8 of the United States Code, which defines nationals and citizens of the United States at birth.

He needs to work with the appropriate authorities to address his unique situation to the satisfaction of the law.

But the question remains, exactly who is the "appropriate authority"?

And unless someone can show some compelling evidence (and I don't mean just a bunch of speculative theories) that he wasn't born in Hawaii, then by the letter of the law, he's qualified.

Anything beyond that would require an interpretation of the intent of Article II which would leave it for the federal courts to decide.

k

Mairi said...

Once again from my friend Jim:

"Smear tactic:

Politics is a rough business, especially in Chicago. Keep in mind that there are no virgin births in politics in the Windy City, and Mr. Obama is no exception. Whether you or I feel that this is worth the time or attention is not really germane. It is what people perceive as an issue. No one likes their ox being gored, but how will people react when something really bad happens?

For the record I do not make any determination if the matter is true. As I stated earlier, this may all be a tempest in a teapot. Truth be told, for many reasons, I hope that it is not. What I do know is that there are issues that have been raised and calling people names or becoming irate does not help the issue. The best way to deal with rumor is clear truth.

Getting kicked in the groin?

In fact, this is doing Mr. Obama a favor. This is an issue, so he needs to get in front of it and hoping it is just going to go away is not a rational response.

Look, I deal with disputes all day. In some instances, the complete truth cannot be known, so one tries their best to follow facts. Making a decision with poor and incomplete information is a prescription for a bad decision. As far as capitulating to demands, there really is nothing to worry about. This is an easy chip shot. The problem is that the longer this goes on, the more likely it is going to be a problem leading to a perception of dishonesty and obfuscation- perhaps in this instance unjustly.

Passion governs strongly but she never governs wisely.

Everyone take a breath and just follow facts.

JJC."

Mairi said...

For myself, let me say this, a letter has been sent to Dan White, Executive Director of the Illinois State Board of Elections earlier this week requesting clarification on the matter of BHO's qualifications. It has been requested that my petitions be submitted to Jesse White, our SOS in Illinois. I am not yet ready to turn the petitions in, and will hopefully have an answer from Mr. White before they are notarized for delivery. The petition effort is an attempt to allow State officials to understand the broad spectrum of residents requesting verification. I have not limited signatures to any requirement other than the signer be an adult resident of the State. I ask no one any further information. Some offer, some do not. It's been an interesting experience. People do want verification of compliance, and to be honest, I have never been involved in more than just community work. This is a new venture for me, but the questions are important enough, that I knew I wanted answers.
Beachy, as far as Goldwater, I was too young and don't know about that election. The man was not elected, so it is a moot point. Had he been elected, I hope there would have been challenges. There probably should have been challenges earlier than an election, such as we are involved in now.
I intend to make sure my questions are answered. If Dan White says take it to Jesse White, then I will go to Jesse White. I have also accepted the responsibility to seek the answers for others by taking on the petition drive.
I will know in the end that I did not leave any questions or doubts to someone else. I think apathy and complacency are a HUGE problem. I am not willing to "hope" that someone else will do the hard work for me.

Mairi said...

Koyaan said...

By the way, I'd just like to comment how refreshing it is to have a nice, respectful debate. Er, Ray notwithstanding. ;)

k
Thank you for that! I have enjoyed the company here! Thanks much for some great views on this subject!
Mairi

Koyaan said...

Welcome back, Jim!

Politics is a rough business, especially in Chicago. Keep in mind that there are no virgin births in politics in the Windy City, and Mr. Obama is no exception. Whether you or I feel that this is worth the time or attention is not really germane. It is what people perceive as an issue. No one likes their ox being gored, but how will people react when something really bad happens?

Well, ultimately it depends on just what people perceive as an issue.

So far, this certificate issue hasn't really made it much beyond some of the fever swamps out there where the whole thing had its genesis. And that fact in itself may well be why it hasn't. Because they've shown themselves to sling virtually anything against the wall in hope that it sticks, they lack any sort of credibility with the broader public and it is easy to dismiss them even if they may have ended up stumbling upon something that's legitimate.

For the record I do not make any determination if the matter is true. As I stated earlier, this may all be a tempest in a teapot. Truth be told, for many reasons, I hope that it is not. What I do know is that there are issues that have been raised and calling people names or becoming irate does not help the issue. The best way to deal with rumor is clear truth.

Well, to a point. Rumors are being hatched every day. Have you heard the one that Obama was with the CIA? Maybe even his mother too?

Would you expect any candidate to deal with each and every one of them? I certainly wouldn't.

You have to pick your targets. And I wouldn't expect any candidate to bother with anything that didn't rise up above the noise.

Perhaps this one will eventually. God knows people are trying. But until it does, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the Obama campaign to address it.

Look, I deal with disputes all day. In some instances, the complete truth cannot be known, so one tries their best to follow facts. Making a decision with poor and incomplete information is a prescription for a bad decision. As far as capitulating to demands, there really is nothing to worry about. This is an easy chip shot. The problem is that the longer this goes on, the more likely it is going to be a problem leading to a perception of dishonesty and obfuscation- perhaps in this instance unjustly.

Yes, but perception by whom? Until it at least rises up to the point that it's starting to be talked about by a Michael Savage or a Sean Hannity, it's not even going to be on the radar screen of any campaign.

Passion governs strongly but she never governs wisely.

Everyone take a breath and just follow facts.


Sadly such wise words are usually only taken to heart by those who don't need to be told in the first place.

Have a great weekend, Jim!

k

Koyaan said...

mairi writes:

For myself, let me say this...

Hey! Me and Jim are talkin' now. This is guy stuff. Why don't you go make us some sandwiches or something? You want another beer, Jim? ;)

a letter has been sent to Dan White, Executive Director of the Illinois State Board of Elections earlier this week requesting clarification on the matter of BHO's qualifications. It has been requested that my petitions be submitted to Jesse White, our SOS in Illinois. I am not yet ready to turn the petitions in, and will hopefully have an answer from Mr. White before they are notarized for delivery. The petition effort is an attempt to allow State officials to understand the broad spectrum of residents requesting verification. I have not limited signatures to any requirement other than the signer be an adult resident of the State. I ask no one any further information. Some offer, some do not. It's been an interesting experience. People do want verification of compliance, and to be honest, I have never been involved in more than just community work. This is a new venture for me, but the questions are important enough, that I knew I wanted answers.

While I certainly admire your initiative, I'm afraid I just don't see any sort of remedy at the state level. As I've said elsewhere, the states are only involved in choosing electors. Not candidates. Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 is a decidedly federal issue. Not a state issue.

And until Obama is actually nominated by the Democratic Party at the convention, it's not even a federal issue yet. In fact, one might be able to argue that it really wouldn't be a federal issue until Obama actually won the election.

So unless the Democratic Party is willing to tackle this issue themselves--and they'd only be able to tackle it with regard to their own rules, and not on any constitutional grounds--I don't see that there's any more than could be done at this point.

Well, there is one other thing.

You could get in touch with your Congress Critter and Senators. However I'd suggest approaching it a bit differently.

Say something to the effect that there have been rumors that the Certification of Live Birth that Senator Obama has made available through several sources is a forgery.

That whether or not this rumor is true, it has raised a legitimate issue. And that is that no one seems to know just what federal entity would be responsible for verifying a candidate's eligibility under Article II even in the event there were legitimate questions raised.

And if indeed there is no federal entity specifically charged with or empowered to administer and enforce Article II, it would be a service to the electorate to establish one.

Just a suggestion.

You have a great weekend too!

Oh, and the sandwich was delicious, thanks! ;)

k

Mairi said...

Koyaan, Hope the beer stayed cold! ;-).
The reason I have taken this on at the State level is because he is already a sitting Senator, and we in Illinois, thanks to all of this, now no longer know if in fact he may even hold that office legally. One of the problems as I am understanding it, is: the name on his actual COLB may have been switched to "Barry Soetoro" when he was adopted. That may be all he is actually hiding. If that is true, and there is good reason to believe it is, then in order to be using BHO, there had to have been another name change, or else he is using an alias. It is also my understanding, that you may not hold office with an alias. That is why my requests run deeper than just the COLB. I am asking for documentation of his travel records as well. They are vital to the whole issue. If he did in fact travel under the name of Barry Soetoro on a U.S. passport, or an Indonesian passport,or a Kenyan passport, his American citizenship may definitely be a HUGE issue. This is where Article II comes into play. He may well be a citizen under the 14th amendment, but still not qualify for POTUS. These are questions he must answer with great certainty. There cannot be any doubt. Illinois is a good starting point but the questions will HAVE to be answered if he is nominated. The best thing for him to do, is answer the challenges, prove beyond any doubt that he is legally qualified, and put it behind him!
I have not heard about him or his Mom working for the CIA actually, in Illinois, we are more concerned with the rest of his feathered flock. We are dealing with some pretty frightening stuff here, his "mentor" on Christianity, Rezko, Grove Parc....how nauseated would you like to be after the sandwich and beer? I don't want them back! :-) ! He claims to stand for "change", but I personally like my home far better than the gutter! His idea of change is NOT mine! If Grove Parc is his example of where we are headed, I'm NOT going! The insult to injury would be if his mess was hatched and he wasn't even legally qualified to hatch it, (er...hatchet!) I'll keep you posted if Jim has any additions. Have a happy, safe weekend!

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Terry said...

You may consult an attorney on your issue, but it would be my understanding that only a citizen challenge would need to made against Barack's qualifications for office, not a suit.

Regarding qualifications for office, I don't know what is required as regards mandatory proof. For instance, in Tennessee for Sheriff, you sign that you meet the qualifications and the only required documentation regards certification for law enforcement. When a candidate is placed on the ballot in each state for the presidential primary, I don't know if their qualifications are actually verified (other than address.)

For instance, here in my small county, we had a property assessor's race. Following the primary and within 10 days of the election, challenges can be made. The loser in the particular case, faxed a letter to me (I was serving as Chairman of our County GOP at the time) and the Tennessee Republican Party challenging the qualifications of her opponent and therefore the legality of his name being placed on the ballot.

We had to hold a hearing to determine if the candidate was indeed qualified according to the qualifications required by law. Our hearing found that the candidate who won the primary was not in fact qualified. He had a felony conviction on his record and had never had his legal voting rights restored by a judge. In fact, he shouldn't have even been voting. He was removed as our candidate by our State Executive Committee.

In the case of Obama, it would seem that once the Democrats nominate Obama at convention, that a challenge would need to be made. I don't know if that challenge would need to be made in all 50 states, or if there is a time limitation. Once the challenge is made, Obama would have to provide his qualifications to the governing authority that hears the challenge.

The process may be entirely convoluted however because of the electoral process. At that point, I don't know if the challenge mechanism is the same.

Ray said...

Some people doubt that Senator Obama was born in the U.S. and some people think that he has dual citizenship and hasn't mentioned it. The latter appears to be irrelevant, but if it is disputed, it is not for him to decide whether it impacts on his eligibility or not, so we probably only have the one issue - his birth place.

After two months of speculation about Obama's birth place, no one on the planet has provided any evidence which contradicts Obama's claim that he was born in Hawaii.

All the evidence that HAS surfaced points to Hawaii as having been his birth place. First we have the logical and undisputed story about his grandparents moving to Hawaii with their teenage daughter. The grandmother worked at a bank and the grandfather worked at a furniture store and Obama's mother enrolled at the university. We then have evidence from a university student who said she was not invited to the wedding of Obama's mother when she was 18 years old.

We have other evidence from many, many people who knew, or knew of, Obama's father, whose name was also Barack Hussein Obama. Then we have a newspaper births notice which was placed by the Department of Health shortly after Obama (junior) was born. That advertisement MUST in all probability refer to Obama's birth because of the timing of it and the rarity of the surname Obama.

Then we have further evidence that Obama's close family (grandmother, grandfather, father and mother) were in Hawaii after the date of his alleged birth there, and no hint of "other places" being a part of their lives anywhere NEAR August 1961.

On top of all that we had the spokesperson for Hawaii Health stating in June, 2008 to the Politfact journalist that the digital image of Obama's birth record represented a genuine birth record from Hawaii. Her later refusal (to a doubting blogger) to confirm or deny that she had previously verified the digital image's content is of no consequence because she also said that the image was (in every way) "identical" to the their certificates. She also said it was "looked like" her own certificate.
A journalist also said the Obama image was "identical" and two of Obama's staff gave an assurance to bloggers and journalists that the image of the COLB was in fact a copy of the real thing.

Now if anyone still doubts that Obama was born in Hawaii they have a right to ask the relevant officials or Obama himself, but they do not have a right to receive an answer unless legislation provides for it. They certainly shouldn't expect, nor are they likely to receive, detailed and irrelevant answers from anyone.

Obviously an official would at some point state that the man known as Barack Hussein Obama, the Senator from Illinois, was born in Hawaii on 4th August 1961. That's all the electorate needs to know.

It wouldn't matter if Obama changed his name as often as he changed his socks in earlier years because every person has that right and it wouldn't matter if some countries had regarded Obama as a citizen - with or without his knowledge and it wouldn't matter if Obama concealed details about his life if they were irrelevant to his eligibility. It wouldn't even matter if Obama LIED about any of his history as long as he didn't lie under oath.

Ray

Terry said...

Ray: I don't think many people believe that Obama isn't a citizen. But if there are doubts, what's the problem with providing documentation?

I just don't understand why Obama would let the story continue to circulate and fester. The Kos Kids certificate was a forgery. Why?

We're not talking about his personal medical records. Heck, just show it and put it all to rest. And if he's lying about something, well, it's is important, Ray.

Mairi said...

Ray, The Hawaiian spokeswoman later rescinded her statement because she was looking at a scanned image! The scanned image is a problem. Especially one that has the cert # removed so it cannot be verified to date of birth, or adoption. If BHO was born in the U.S., and later became a citizen of Kenya or Indonesia, they do NOT recognize dual citizenship with U.S., even if he HAS a legal COLB, it may not matter.
http://www.politicalgateway.com/main/columns/read.html?col=731

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/aug/06/things-you-might-not-know-about-barack-obama/

Please go to Paragraph 12 at the second site. This is a problem! The COLB is only a beginning. If BHO was adopted, then his current COLB should indicate the name "Barry Soetoro". This should be accurate. If that is what his name is on the current COLB, then he is also probably still a citizen of Indonesia under Indonesian law as well. Now, it needs to be verified if his name was ever LEGALLY changed back to BHO. If not, he is using an alias. If he is still BS (hmmmm.. that sounds silly) he is most likely a citizen of TWO countries who do not recognize dual citizenship with the U.S. and as such, his COLB is worthless even if he was born here. This is not a challenge being made lightly, and I can assure you, there a MANY people wanting this cleared up! The petition to the Federal authorities has nearly 5,000 signatures in just a few days! The signatures are adding steadily. That's a LOT of signatures in such a short amount of time in a forum that is not easily presented.
It DOES matter if his U.S. citizenship was nullified by citizenship in either of the other countries. We still don't know, however, that he WAS in fact born here. That's a huge issue. If he was not born in the U.S., his Mom cannot give citizenship to him automatically. She was too young legally! He may never have even HAD dual citizenship.
If you are not frightened off by a lengthy read, may I suggest you read Judah Benjamin's EXCELLENT posts regarding Article II. It will explain why all of this is so important! BHO, as I said previously, has VERY unique situations which I do not believe have ever plagued a previous candidate. He needs to get all of this addressed as quickly as possible, and get it out of the way. It will NOT go away on it's own! The COLB is ONLY the beginning!

Ray said...

Blogger Terry said...

Ray: I don't think many people believe that Obama isn't a citizen.

No one can doubt that Obama is a citizen because his mother was a citizen and Obama has not renounced his citizenship and also because he has held an American passport for nearly all of his life that says he is a citizen.

The only question is whether he was a natural born citizen. He says that he was, and unless someone can prove he wasn't his claim must stand.

But if there are doubts, what's the problem with providing documentation?

There IS no problem with providing any relevant documentation to the appropriate authorities at the appropriate time. Where did you get the idea that there was a "problem"? Certainly there is an IMAGINED problem, but in reality no problem exists.

Politicians, or indeed any citizens, don't go round performing tasks allotted to them by bloggers, journalists or the general public. To do so, would be a sign of extreme weakness or feeble mind.

I just don't understand why Obama would let the story continue to circulate and fester. The Kos Kids certificate was a forgery. Why?

It wasn't a forgery. I am an expert in graphic reproduction and I can easily tell that the COLB is not a fabricated one. I cannot make such a fabrication, nor can anyone else, nor have the 'allegators of forgery ' accepted my challenge to do themselves what their phantom forger allgedly did.

Koyaan on this blog attempted to make a fabricated COLB but despite his skill and dedication to the job I found SIX glaring errors in it - and that's without using the sophisticated technology that is available to detect tampering. The image that was released by Obama has ZERO signs of fabrication.

The forgery allegation was all a pathetic con, orchestrated by cartoony characters to assist with the smears. It's only one of a dozen smears that are all interconnected and wrapped up in a neat bundle on the Texasdarlin blog - with more smears being added as frantically as can be cobbled together by a herd of morons on the site.

The chief 'allegator' of forgery "Techdude" is himself a fraud because he has stolen the identity of a prominent expert in detecting forgeries.

Obama would let the (false) story run unabated because there are more people claiming he's an alien and a terrorist - so they get prority because they've got the numbers. There's over 200 of them and only 138 people in the CULT of the COLB.

We're not talking about his personal medical records. Heck, just show it and put it all to rest. And if he's lying about something, well, it's is important, Ray.

There's no law against lying unless it's done under oath.

If you don't see the evidence you require (name, birth date and place) just ask the relevant authorities AFTER it becomes an issue - which is after Obama is nominated - if he is nominated at all.

Ray

Koyaan said...

mairi wrote:

Koyaan, Hope the beer stayed cold! ;-).

Perfect! Thanks, mairi! ;)

The reason I have taken this on at the State level is because he is already a sitting Senator, and we in Illinois, thanks to all of this, now no longer know if in fact he may even hold that office legally.

Ah, ok.

But, he's already been elected. And the qualifications for being a Senator are still a federal issue, not a state issue.

Also, the qualification for being a Senator is that one simply have been a US citizen for nine years. Don't have to be "natural born." You can be a naturalized citizen.

One of the problems as I am understanding it, is: the name on his actual COLB may have been switched to "Barry Soetoro" when he was adopted. That may be all he is actually hiding.

What do you mean "when he was adopted"? I've yet to see any compelling evidence that he was ever adopted.

If that is true, and there is good reason to believe it is, then in order to be using BHO, there had to have been another name change, or else he is using an alias.

If.

That's the problem with all of this. It's just a bunch of if's strung together. String together enough if's and you can come up with anything.

It is also my understanding, that you may not hold office with an alias. That is why my requests run deeper than just the COLB.

Not sure how you came to that understanding.

The qualifications for holding the offices of Congress and the President as stated in the Constitution are the only set of qualifications. No other qualifications can be added without amending the Constitution.

The best thing for him to do, is answer the challenges, prove beyond any doubt that he is legally qualified, and put it behind him!

I really don't see any way for him to actually put it behind him.

Most of those who are screaming the loudest over this are those who have demonstrated over and over again that they'll say anything and won't believe anything they don't want to be true.

So I simply don't see any scenario where this could be put behind him.

Can you come up with one?

Have a happy, safe weekend!

Thanks, mairi! You too!

k

Ray said...

Blogger Mairi said...

Ray, The Hawaiian spokeswoman later rescinded her statement because she was looking at a scanned image!

That is not true. The spokesperson expressly REFUSED to contradict what she allegedly communicated to the Politifact journalist - about the Obama image representing a genuine Hawaiian certificate.

The scanned image is a problem. Especially one that has the cert # removed so it cannot be verified to date of birth, or adoption.

That is not true either. It is not a "problem" for bloggers - because they couldn't use Obama's COLB number to prove anything. The Hawaii Health Dept certainly wouldn't reveal to bloggers if any discrepancy existed with a COLB number, and bloggers wouldn't get within a bull's roar of anything to do with adoption.

If BHO was born in the U.S., and later became a citizen of Kenya or Indonesia, they do NOT recognize dual citizenship with U.S., even if he HAS a legal COLB, it may not matter.

That, even if it is true, has got nothing whatever to do with U.S. law or any person's right to do anything in the U.S. -- become President or join a basketball team or anything else. Obama could be a citizen of every country in the world and it wouldn't affect his right to stand for the Presidency one iota.

If BHO was adopted, then his current COLB should indicate the name "Barry Soetoro". This should be accurate.

No, Obama's current certificate should by law show his birth name if he was NOT adopted. If he WAS adopted AND he had his name changed, then the certificate should show his adopted name.

He could however have used any number of different names in his earlier years and it would make no difference at all to his status right now. If he HAS used a variety of names and has reverted to his original name that appears on his COLB, then he has no need to mention that fact. If however he had been using a different name to waht is on teh COLB, he would merely need to demonstrate that he had:
(a) Changed his name (with an official name change) after his birth, or
(b) Changed his name without doing it formally.
He obviously hasn't NOW got a different name to his birth name, so other names (if they existed) are irrelevant.

If that is what his name is on the current COLB, then he is also probably still a citizen of Indonesia under Indonesian law as well.

Well as I said earlier, citizenship in other countries is irrelevant to his right to stand for the Presidency.

Now, it needs to be verified if his name was ever LEGALLY changed back to BHO. If not, he is using an alias.

No, it does NOT need to be verified at all. No state or federal law requires him or any other candidate to reveal previous names if they existed.

If he is still BS (hmmmm.. that sounds silly) he is most likely a citizen of TWO countries who do not recognize dual citizenship with the U.S. and as such, his COLB is worthless even if he was born here.

Don't worry about it. If Obama WAS a citizen of some other country (or countries) and he thought it may annoy too many people, he would simply renounce that citizenship.

This is not a challenge being made lightly, and I can assure you, there a MANY people wanting this cleared up! The petition to the Federal authorities has nearly 5,000 signatures in just a few days! The signatures are adding steadily. That's a LOT of signatures in such a short amount of time in a forum that is not easily presented.

Fair enough. If some people want more proof, good luck to them. Even if only ONE citizen required proof from an appropriate authority, good on them for ensuring fair play and honestly in the electoral process.
It's no biggie for me because my standard of proof was met long ago.

It DOES matter if his U.S. citizenship was nullified by citizenship in either of the other countries.

That's impossible. No country can nullify the law of another, and Obama is a citizen of the U.S. and will always remain one unless he renounces it, or if (in the most extraordinary of circumstances, the U.S. Congress removes his citizenship). No state in the Union could ever possibly do it because it is expressly outlawed in the U.S. Constitution.

So do you get the picture here - not even the massive states of California or Texas could touch anyone's citizenship with a 40 foot pole - so no tinpot country can do it either.

To sum it up -- 2 legal entities on planet earth can remove Obama's citizenship:
(1)Obama himself
(2)The U.S. Congress.

We still don't know, however, that he WAS in fact born here. That's a huge issue. If he was not born in the U.S., his Mom cannot give citizenship to him automatically.

She was too young legally! He may never have even HAD dual citizenship.


His mother's age and the number of years she spent on U.S. soil is totally irrelevant. The only issue for his eligibility is whether he was born on U.S. soil.

If you are not frightened off by a lengthy read, may I suggest you read Judah Benjamin's EXCELLENT posts regarding Article II. It will explain why all of this is so important!

No, I have no interest in anyone's word-salads - let alone an obviously delusory series of them, written by a person who queried his own sanity in the process.

BHO, as I said previously, has VERY unique situations which I do not believe have ever plagued a previous candidate.

Yes, the excessive amount of melanin is a problem for some people alright, but he was brought up entirely White and had to learn how to be Black. If the authors of the Constitution had ever imagined that women or people with excessive amounts of melanin in their skin could reach the highest office, they would have made provision to exclude them. It's never too late - you can always have a referendum to alter the Constitution to prohibit people like that form qualifying.
I'd also be inclined to put in a new bit about people wearing their baseball caps backwards because that also carries a "message" to the electorate about the suitability of people to run for the highest office :-)

He needs to get all of this addressed as quickly as possible, and get it out of the way.

Look, he's a basketball player from way back, so my guess is that he will slam dunk all the innuendo in one ht.

Ray

Koyaan said...

terry wrote:

Ray: I don't think many people believe that Obama isn't a citizen. But if there are doubts, what's the problem with providing documentation?

Provide it how, exactly?

I just don't understand why Obama would let the story continue to circulate and fester.

Well, since it's really only festering in a handful of fever swamps where people will literally say anything and believe anything, I can understand why he (or any candidate for that matter) would not want to give those people any sort of recognition.

The Kos Kids certificate was a forgery. Why?

I haven't seen any conclusive evidence of that.

We have some fabricated reports by Techdude (which I address here and here) and who is a fraud himself, passing himself off as an expert by using the qualifications and experience of an actual expert (which I address here).

And then we have Polarik of York: Medieval Image Analyst (for those of you who are too young or weren't fans of Saturday Night Live, Google "Theodoric of York").

The kid's just clueless and has demonstrated numerous times that he hasn't any real understanding or experience with graphics and imaging.

When he first started writing about this back in mid-June, he demonstrated that he didn't even have an understanding of JPEG artifacts.

k

Ray said...

koyaan wrote:

And then we have Polarik of York: [....]

When he first started writing about this back in mid-June, he demonstrated that he didn't even have an understanding of JPEG artifacts.


Yes, the other 'allegator' of forgery, Polarik, is also grossly incompetent, because knowing about JPEG artifacts VERY thing that one needs to be familiar with when looking for a fabricated electronic document that is in JPEG format.

Besides that, his writing style has been very unprofessional. To use the current vernacular, Polarik's writing style is that of a nutter.

It wouldn't matter if Polarik was semi-educated (as I am, after having left school at 15) if we could see that he was TRYING to impart his messages in a professional and factual way, but he isn't trying.

Polarik's aggressive and almost delusional style of communication about the COLB doesn't prove he is wrong about anything, but it certainly should cause the average person to question his credibility as an investigator of a forgery.

So here we have this whole COLB forgery allegation, based on the testimony of a known impersonator and an apparent nutter.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that the campaign to obtain proof that Obama is a natural born citizen be aborted, but I would strongly suggest that the seekers of the truth take SOME interest in the alleged facts that led them to doubt Obama's truthfulness and SOME interest in the opposing evidence AND to talk about it.

If some pretense to do that is not made it will look a bit strange afterwards when people discover that the questioners were only interested in ONE part of the story.

Now I already know, and have known for a couple of weeks that the forged "border" fiasco is a lot of nonsense. I have periodically mentioned on several blogs that the marriage certificate for 2007 (2nd style) has an IDENTICAL border.

Ray

Mairi said...

Ray, I think the debate here has been great. I also think that we will never convince you, and you are not going to convince us. Seems to me, that's pretty indicative of the American public right now. The issue is not going to go away, it will have to be addressed. As for the amount of melanin, I am STILL praying that Colin Powell will make a run for POTUS! I would pound the pavement for him in a heartbeat, and I am disabled. (No! Ray! Not in the brain! :-) LOL!)
My understanding of this is:
1) BHO may or may not have been born in the U.S. If here, he had citizenship. If out of country, he did not, as his Mom was too young to automatically give it to him.
2) BHO Sr. filed his birth in Kenya in 1963. Kenya does not recognize dual citizenship. If he had U.S. citizenship at that time, there is a distinct possibility it was negated by Kenya's.
3) Lolo Soetoro adopted him when he was 5. It is believed his Mom had his COLB changed to reflect that adoption. He at that time would have become an Indonesian citizen. That citizenship would have negated his U.S. citizenship IF he had it! Indonesia would not have allowed his residency and schooling in the manner they did had he been a U.S.citizen, and not Indonesian at the time.
4) When he returned to Hawaii to live with his grandparents, they did not adopt him. He would still have been an Indonesian citizen living in Hawaii.
5) The reason his travel comes into play in 1981 becomes crucial. If he traveled on an Indonesian passport in the name of Barry Soetoro, he could have negated U.S. citizenship by that action.
Again, this is my understanding of his unique situation. Since neither Kenya or Indonesia allow dual citizenship, and since he was adopted by Lolo, if he took any action as an "adult" that accepted his citizenship in either of those countries, namely use a passport legal to either country, it would be understood that as an adult, he negated his U.S.citizenship.
This is a very interesting situation, and it does not all rest on JUST a birth certificate! As I have said previously, the COLB is only the beginning.
BHO's is truly a unique situation, and it WILL be the test, and the precedent should anything like this happen again. It is why SO many people are INSISTING that it be scrutinized CAREFULLY! It will need the appropriate agency, and it appears we are still in the determining stage on that, to make sure all questions are answered. I have heard some suggest that it may have to be decided in Federal court to be certain that all laws are adhered to. If they determine that is the best place, then I am sure it will end up there, but for now, people are doing what they can to make certain that it IS decided properly, and my hat goes off to the valiant people who are not willing to just accept this as a "gentlemanly process...with self certification". It's is just TOO important!
"To Colin, You had BEST get your running shoes on! America awaits you!"
Take care everyone!

Ray said...

Blogger Mairi said...

Ray, I think the debate here has been great. I also think that we will never convince you, and you are not going to convince us. Seems to me, that's pretty indicative of the American public right now.

There would be something awfully wrong if you didn't at least respond to the alternative evidence that has been presented.

The issue is not going to go away, it will have to be addressed.

You keep saying that as if there was some sort of opposition to the idea. Sure, there's some opposition to the idea of pressuring Obama to release some of the information straight away, but hardly any opposition to releasing it at all.
Personally, in view of all the lies that are being told, I think Obama should play everyone like a fisherman for being so uninformed, dopey or obnoxious. He knows the BC issue and the associated stuff it's just more smear.

As for the amount of melanin, I am STILL praying that Colin Powell will make a run for POTUS! I would pound the pavement for him in a heartbeat, and I am disabled. (No! Ray! Not in the brain! :-) LOL!)

I'd vote for him too if I was able., although I have no idea which party he's in.

My understanding of this is:
1) BHO may or may not have been born in the U.S. If here, he had citizenship. If out of country, he did not, as his Mom was too young to automatically give it to him.


As I said before, citizenship is useless on it's own. We need to talk "natural born citizen". You already have the word of a U.S. Senator and other witnesses that a valid BC was released on the net, but you prefer the word of a known impersonator "Techdude" and an aobvious nutter (Polarik). Very strange indeed.

2) BHO Sr. filed his birth in Kenya in 1963. Kenya does not recognize dual citizenship. If he had U.S. citizenship at that time, there is a distinct possibility it was negated by Kenya's.

As I said before, it is irrelevant if Obama was given Kenyan citizenship. (His countrymen are saying he didn't get it by the way). Also, do you have any idea when Obama Snr. returned to Kenya?

3) Lolo Soetoro adopted him when he was 5.

Impossible under Indonesian law once he had reached 5 (which he had).

It is believed his Mom had his COLB changed to reflect that adoption.

Impossible unless it was an entirely different set of parents.

He at that time would have become an Indonesian citizen. That citizenship would have negated his U.S. citizenship IF he had it!

As mentioned above, it was impossible for him to have Indonesian citizenship because of his age. It was also impossible for his U.S. citizenship to be cancelled because (as I said before) only Obama and Congress can cancel his U.S. citizenship.

Indonesia would not have allowed his residency and schooling in the manner they did had he been a U.S.citizen, and not Indonesian at the time.

Yes they would.

4) When he returned to Hawaii to live with his grandparents, they did not adopt him. He would still have been an Indonesian citizen living in Hawaii.

He wasn't an Indonesian citizen when he returned.

5) The reason his travel comes into play in 1981 becomes crucial. If he traveled on an Indonesian passport in the name of Barry Soetoro, he could have negated U.S. citizenship by that action.

No he couldn't.

Again, this is my understanding of his unique situation. Since neither Kenya or Indonesia allow dual citizenship, and since he was adopted by Lolo,

He wasn't adopted by Lolo.

f he took any action as an "adult" that accepted his citizenship in either of those countries, namely use a passport legal to either country, it would be understood that as an adult, he negated his U.S.citizenship.

Who by - bloggers?

This is a very interesting situation, and it does not all rest on JUST a birth certificate! As I have said previously, the COLB is only the beginning.

The beginning of a long-running smear, but not the beginning of anything real.

BHO's is truly a unique situation, and it WILL be the test, and the precedent should anything like this happen again.

The only thing that will happen again is MORE smears. The Texasdarlin site has more smears in the pipeline.

It is why SO many people are INSISTING that it be scrutinized CAREFULLY!

You still don't geddit. No one needs to "insist" - they merely have to ask the appropriate authorities if they have ben satisfied that he et the requirements.

It will need the appropriate agency, and it appears we are still in the determining stage on that, to make sure all questions are answered.

You won't get many questions answered. It's like terrorism - if you give in to them they will do it again and want more next time.

I have heard some suggest that it may have to be decided in Federal court to be certain that all laws are adhered to.

More nonsense to keep the smears going.

If they determine that is the best place, then I am sure it will end up there, but for now, people are doing what they can to make certain that it IS decided properly, and my hat goes off to the valiant people who are not willing to just accept this as a "gentlemanly process...with self certification". It's is just TOO important!

There isn't any self-certification. Obama has already proved he is eligible. You just need to find out who he proved it to.

If by any chance Hillary beats Obama in the vote, he will, because of his immense popularity, be selected as a her VP if she wins - so what on earth will you do THEN!

Ray

Mairi said...

Ray, "Nuts & Bolts". "We the people" in the matter of BHO are also "we the jury". A claim has been brought, and the jury is awaiting the expert witnesses to provide evidence beyond any reasonable doubt, so that a just verdict may be rendered. It is possible for this to happen in ANY election, it just so happens, it is THIS ONE!
Some personal things that MIGHT surprise you. I consider myself to be conservative, I have never voted Libertarian, and, the ONLY candidates I have ever "pounded the pavement" for, (there have been several) have ALL been Democrats! Go figure! I surprised myself when I came to that realization today! I would LOVE to see Colin Powell and Bobby Jindal on a POTUS and VP ticket together! I don't think Bobby would become Democrat for the festivities, so I would think they would have to choose either Republican, ( I would vote for Colin no matter WHAT ticket he ran on!) or Libertarian! WOO HOO! Wouldn't THAT ticket bring the Libertarian party into their own!

Ray said...

Blogger Mairi said...

Ray, "Nuts & Bolts". "We the people" in the matter of BHO are also "we the jury". A claim has been brought, and the jury is awaiting the expert witnesses to provide evidence beyond any reasonable doubt, so that a just verdict may be rendered.

Unfortunately you would need some sort of incriminating evidence before a charge could be laid. At the moment you don't have any. All you have are smears that are by definition never meant to be taken seriously and reach courts.

Smears are only ever meant to create doubt, confusion, fear, hostility, anger, financial loss, loss of sleep and alter voting patterns etc. If they did more than that they wouldn't be smears would they?

No, that's right -- if they did more than that, they'd be full blown charges, and that's the LAST thing your average smearer wants - proper charges, no siree, because actual charges bring smearing to a halt and have the capacity to kill all the previous smears and wreck the credibility of the smearing ringleaders PLUS their credit ratings in some cases.

I'd suggest that you get in contact with the ringleaders and discover for yourself that you'd be treading on awfully thin (legal) ice if you tried to take a smear into the real world or a trial. Hell, you could even be arrested for intentionally impeding law enforcement officers, i.e. "wasting government resources".

It is possible for this to happen in ANY election, it just so happens, it is THIS ONE!

It sounds like you think that you've invented the legal-wheel.

Some personal things that MIGHT surprise you. I consider myself to be conservative, I have never voted Libertarian, and, the ONLY candidates I have ever "pounded the pavement" for, (there have been several) have ALL been Democrats! Go figure! I surprised myself when I came to that realization today!

Well I have ways of making you see the light :-)

I would LOVE to see Colin Powell and Bobby Jindal on a POTUS and VP ticket together! [....]

In Australia I've never cared much who is in charge, although there was one Opposition Leader here who wasn't averse to belting people up in car parks, smashing TV cameras, intimidating people and saying the most disgusting things in Parliament with the TV cameras rolling. He had to go.

Ray

Edward said...

How can we be sure that his mother didn't register his birth in Hawaii after her son was born in Kenya? After all, children in the US are not always born in hospitals; yet, their births are still registered.

Just because what purports to be a non-original birth certificate is posted on Obama's website doesn't prove that his birth actually occured in Hawaii.

Why doesn't he produce a certificate with the official certification seal to the news media instead of posting it on his own site?

I am not convinced that what I see on this site is a genuine certificate.