Monday, August 11, 2008

Obama's Supporters Have a Moral Problem

After being down this evening Texas Darlin's blog is back up. TD analyzes the legal implications of Obama's multiple citizenship. TD argues:

"Prior to 2007 (and possibly earlier), Indonesian law did not permit dual citizenship. Thus, if Obama actively kept his Indonesian citizenship, his US citizenship could be challenged." With respect to Kenya he notes that "Under the Constitution of Kenya, he would have automatically forfeited his citizenship at the age of 21 unless he affirmatively “claimed” it. If he took some action to keep his citizenship, that’s a big problem because 1) Kenya prohibits dual citizenship and 2) the US does not recognize dual citizenship with Kenya."

TD adds: "Again, I don’t think that Obama has Kenyan citizenship. I think that the Rocky Mountain report and Andy Martin’s work are poorly sourced on this point."

TD raises a few points that amount to ethical as well as Constitutional problems for Mr. Obama:

1. The attempt to cloak his Indonesian citizenship
2. Constitutional problems because the conflict of interest may mean that he is not a "natural born citizen".

TD writes:

"The “natural-born” clause of Article II is commonly understood to relate to the place of birth, but more accurately relates to loyalty to country as Commander in Chief. That was the original intent of the founding fathers. In McCain’s case, there is no question because of his circumstances (born on military base to 2 US citizens, later joined the military, never had anything to do with Panama, etc.). In Obama’s case, it’s not nearly so clear, especially given his travels, relatives, and associations in some of these other countries."

He concludes:

"In my mind, however, the biggest problem is that Sen. Obama has intentionally concealed his background, Indonesian identity, citizenship, and the fact that he was at one time Muslim."

If these allegations are true, there are serious ethical and moral concerns about Mr. Obama. I am not a constitutional expert and would want additional support for TD's interpretation of the concept of natural born citizen. As a professor of business and a former corporate manager, there are serious and obvious motivational, ethical and professional concerns about conflicts of interest, especially those that are as fundamental as dual or multiple citizenship. There have been cases of terrorists who claimed to be loyal to the United States for many years before committing murder.

Obama supporters' recent responses to allegations of Mr. Obama's longstanding deception about his birth certificate; his failure to disclose and reveal his adopted name which allegedly is on the only birth certificate available to him; and fundamental questions about his citizenship and loyalty suggest a moral breakdown. Whether these allegations are true will remain to be seen.

But instead of questioning and asking Mr. Obama to do the right thing, to reveal information, to behave in an ethical and open fashion, the response of a number of Obama supporters, all with whom I have corresponded, has been to defend his lying, to lie themselves, to concoct specious arguments, to quibble, to deflect and to feign.

Obama Supporters: You have a problem. Your candidate has been lying, covering up and may have serious conflicts of interest that could prevent him from doing the fundamental Presidential job of protecting these United States. You need to demand that he explain the deception, explain the dual citizenship and reveal any and all documentation. Concocting specious arguments, lying and hoping that things will turn out all right is not the right approach.

7 comments:

Ray said...

Mitchell Langbert wrote:

[Texas darlin wrote]:
"Prior to 2007 (and possibly earlier), Indonesian law did not permit dual citizenship. Thus, if Obama actively kept his Indonesian citizenship, his US citizenship could be challenged."


No it wouldn't because if Obama had Indonesian citizenship he would relinquish it before answering any questions.

With respect to Kenya he notes that "Under the Constitution of Kenya, he would have automatically forfeited his citizenship at the age of 21 unless he affirmatively “claimed” it. If he took some action to keep his citizenship, that’s a big problem because 1) Kenya prohibits dual citizenship and 2) the US does not recognize dual citizenship with Kenya."

That's impossible and therefore a non-issue because if Obama had Kenyan citizenship he would have had to renounce U.S. citizenship to get it or retain it at any time after he was 21.

TD raises a few points that amount to ethical as well as Constitutional problems for Mr. Obama:

1. The attempt to cloak his Indonesian citizenship


Another TD allegation without any substance whatsoever.

2. Constitutional problems because the conflict of interest may mean that he is not a "natural born citizen".

Impossible. Any conflict of interest would have nothing whatsoever to do with him being a "natural born" citizen. He is in fact a "natural born citizen" and not even the Congress can deny that reality.

They could revoke a person's citizenship under the most extreme circumstances but Congress cannot (and would not) change facts. They (or some other other body) could prevent a person being President because of a perceived conflict of interest, but they cannot change history.

TD writes:

"The “natural-born” clause of Article II is commonly understood to relate to the place of birth, but more accurately relates to loyalty to country as Commander in Chief.


That is absurd in the extreme.

In McCain’s case, there is no question because of his circumstances (born on military base to 2 US citizens, later joined the military, never had anything to do with Panama, etc.).

That also is absurd. There WAS in fact "a question" about the issue. That's why a vote had to be taken - th RESOLVE that big question.

In Obama’s case, it’s not nearly so clear, especially given his travels, relatives, and associations in some of these other countries."

Once again - absurd in the extreme. It is actually crystal CLEAR - rather than "not so clear". Obama IS a natural born citizen and he has a certificate and lots of other evidence to prove it if necessary.

He concludes:

"In my mind, however, the biggest problem is that Sen. Obama has intentionally concealed his background, Indonesian identity, citizenship, and the fact that he was at one time Muslim."


That's the problem - it's all in your mind (or so you say, which I don't believe for a minute incidentaly). It isn't like that in reality. He hasn't concealed anything that you know of yet.

If these allegations are true, there are serious ethical and moral concerns about Mr. Obama.

And if they are FALSE then there are serious ethical questions about your Texasdarlin activities and who you should be permitted to "out" in
the future.
--- end comment to TD

Mitchell Langbert wrote:

Obama supporters' recent responses to allegations of Mr. Obama's longstanding deception about his birth certificate; his failure to disclose and reveal his adopted name which allegedly is on the only birth certificate available to him; and fundamental questions about his citizenship and loyalty suggest a moral breakdown. Whether these allegations are true will remain to be seen.


None of it is true. There has been no "deception". People need only ask him RELEVANT questions and they'll receive appropriate answers.

But instead of questioning and asking Mr. Obama to do the right thing, to reveal information, to behave in an ethical and open fashion, the response of a number of Obama supporters, all with whom I have corresponded, has been to defend his lying, to lie themselves, to concoct specious arguments, to quibble, to deflect and to feign.

If any of the above is true, it's not going to grow legs unless you present a decent amount of evidence .

Obama Supporters: You have a problem. Your candidate has been lying, covering up and may have serious conflicts of interest that could prevent him from doing the fundamental Presidential job of protecting these United States. You need to demand that he explain the deception, explain the dual citizenship and reveal any and all documentation. Concocting specious arguments, lying and hoping that things will turn out all right is not the right approach.


There's not many who believe any of that so you're asking the wrong crowd. I'd suggest you ask someone who believes the string of allegations, to ask the hard questions.

Ray

Koyaan said...

mitchell langbert wrote:

Concocting specious arguments, lying and hoping that things will turn out all right is not the right approach.

You're right. That's not the right approach. But you seem to be overlooking the fact that that's the approach that's being taken by the likes of TexasDarlin, Techdude, Judah Benjamin and others.

k

Mitchell Langbert said...

All I ask is that Mr. Obama present the birth certificate. There is no need to argue. I personally asked his office for a copy or to give me permission to obtain a copy and they refused. I don't see any debate there.

Koyaan said...

All I ask is that Mr. Obama present the birth certificate. There is no need to argue. I personally asked his office for a copy or to give me permission to obtain a copy and they refused.

And you find that unreasonable?

If they had a copy made for you, then they'd have to have copies made for anyone else who asks. Which could ultimately be thousands. You expect the Hawaiian Department of Health to crank out thousands of certificates?

k

Mitchell Langbert said...

Koyaan--all that Obama's staff has to do is write a letter to the Hawaii Health Department and authorize anyone to obtain a copy of the birth certificate. Not very complicated.

I have a suggestion:

Ray, you should change your ID to "John Ehrlichmann".

Koyaan, you should change your ID to "HR Haldeman"

If you don't know who they are, look them up on Wikipedia. You sound just like them.

Mitchell Langbert said...

PS--they charge a $10 fee. I'm sure they'd make a huge profit. I'll do it for them. 10 cent copy plus 42 cents mailing, it takes 5 seconds, in exchange get $10. I'll do it for them and pay them 1/2.

Ray said...

Mitchell Langberty wrote:

Ray, you should change your ID to "John Ehrlichmann".

Koyaan, you should change your ID to "HR Haldeman"


That's the biggest compliment I've received in a year or two - thanks.

I know who they were, but I get them mixed up. I hope Ehrlichmann was the one who would have chewed his arm off for Nixon, but I suspect it might have been Liddy.

Ray